-Operation Grapple
February 10, 2023.
[Tere is in his 85th year]
Shimasaki:
Firstly, I would like to know your experience during the Operation Grapple test series and how many [tests] were you present for.
A bit of an overview please.
Tahi:
When I first joined the navy, I joined the navy 1956. ‘57 I was, I qualified as a telegraphist. In 1957, I was transferred to a British HMS Cell Victor. The Pukaki and the Rotoiti were already up at Christmas Island, so I was transferred up to Christmas Island on this British Vessel called ‘HMS Cell Victor’. There was myself and three others who were onboard. We sailed to Christmas Island, and I was transferred to HMNZS Pukaki. When I went onto the Pukaki they said their compliment was full as far as the radio team was concerned so they transferred me to the Rotoiti- and I was transferred from the Pukaki to the Rotoiti on a jackstay transfer which was where they had this like, go from the [inaudible] of the ship between two ships. And that’s how I was transferred from the Pukaki to the Rotoiti. And then when we went out, cause we were doing weather forecasting for the bomb tests, I saw four bomb tests at Christmas Island. When the first bomb test went off, we all had to put our anti-flash gear on, we had helmets on with dark glasses on, we had our hands over our dark glasses. When the bomb blasted, we could see the light through our dark glasses, and we could even see the skeleton of our fingers. And that’s how bright the blast was when they dropped it because it was up in the atmosphere.
Shimasaki:
Was it similar for the other three tests you witnessed?
Tahi:
They were the same.
Shimasaki:
You had the helmet and the goggles on?
Tahi:
Everything, that’s right. We had the same procedure for everything, and every bomb test was the same. Low and behold though, when the bombs exploded, when the mushrooms started to form, it was like the sea was going up towards the mushroom, being sucked up. As far as I was concerned, we could see all the different colours of the mushroom, like all the colours in the rainbow. And for myself, I thought to myself, ‘Heck! 18 years old, and that’s what we’ve, something that we could see.’
I am sure there wouldn’t be too many 18 years olds around that would see something like that. In fact, I was part of our Māori contingent, which was, wasn’t all that big, and I don’t know whether I was fortunate or not, but I was not like the others who have gathered on the upper deck of the ship, but I was up alongside the bridge where the captain and his officers were, and I was up with signalman. Signalman had to fly the flags and all that too, you see, so I was virtually on the bridge because at that time I was one of the duty telegraphists, and I managed to have time off from the office to go and view the bomb tests, and that’s where I ended up- I was by the bridge where the signalmen were. And, I thought to myself, ‘what a marvellous experience to see something like that.’ Yeah. It was really a marvellous thing to see, I thought it was anyway.
Unknown to us what could happen to us in the future, the aftereffects. After I arrived back in New Zealand, I was working out in the open with the work I was doing at the golf club, and I was working and, whilst I was working, I had flashbacks of the bomb tests whilst I was working, and I couldn’t do it. So, I just had to sit down, and lie down and rest myself because I couldn’t carry on with my work. They called it PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and I thought to myself, ‘no, I better get something done about this.’ So, I contacted a psychiatrist and asked if she could help me out, so she did help me out, she came to my house 16 times. We had, when she researched everything, she kept on coming back, asked me different things, and I was saying to her I had these occasions where I would go to work and then I would start to think about the bombs, and it put me off my work. And she said to me after we’ve had these 16 sessions, she said, “the best thing for you to do is to give it space” and that’s what it was all about. She said, “if you feel it again, let it go through and give it space for it to go through you.” And that’s what happened to me and after that I felt good.
Shimasaki:
Since you have talked about some of the implications already that you’ve faced as a result of witnessing the tests, did you face any other implications for your health, or well-being, or social aspects?
Tahi:
Yes, I did have some problems with my health. Even now I am still having problems. But it’s problems that cannot be attributed to what happened at the bomb tests. See, like if you have diabetes that is something that is genetic, and I’ve got Parkinson’s at the moment, and that’s something that just happens. I think its nothing connected to the tests. Whether it has anything to do with my effects of radiation, I can’t put it down to anything like that. But as far as sleep apnoea is concerned, then that may have, I don’t know, I don’t know whether that has anything to do with it or not but that happened after I had witnessed the bomb tests. As far as health goes, I can’t, I can’t pin anything down to something that has happened to me in the past that would be attributable to my experience at the bomb tests. You see, even this Parkinson’s, I don’t know if it’s got anything to do with it or not, and like my diabetes, I said that before, my diabetes is probably genetic.
I lost my grandson- he was 24-years old. And he was in Perth, Western Australia. He came back home to us one Christmas, and he grabbed his shirt and went like this, opened his shirt, and a scar right across there- right across his chest. It turned out that he had testicular cancer, and then he died from bone cancer.
Shimasaki:
I am sorry to hear that.
Tahi:
I took his case to the expert panel that was formed by the governments under Judith Collins, and the expert panel says, “it’s got nothing to do with your exposure to radiation.” And, I was thinking to myself, ‘what experience have they had, and what exposure to radiation?’ It’s something new. As a scientist, or they were doctors, and who were they to argue the point whether it had anything to do with it or not. I have a daughter; she won’t have any children because of children being deformed when they are born. And we have had several of our, we had, like there’s this reunion that we’re having, that you’ll be coming up for- there’s guys coming to the reunion, standing up and giving the experiences of their children, how they’ve been born with deformities.
Shimasaki:
Yes. In my research, I have come across a few children and grandchildren who have been born with deformities.
Tahi:
That’s what happened to our guys. Yeah. And it’s bad when you see them, when they stand up and give you these stories on these children, it’s bad to hear. You know, it’s very emotional because everyone at the reunion just couldn’t stand it you know, and they were so emotional about the whole thing. One guy stood up and said, “[inaudible] my sons were the same age, the same age and then they died.” It’s bad… we are going to have our reunion here in April, at the end of April 28th and 29th.
Shimasaki:
Talking about the group- what inspired you or who drew you into becoming an active member of the New Zealand Nuclear Test Veteran’s Association, and now as I understand it you are the Chairperson?
Tahi:
Well, when it was first mooted, I held a reunion in Palmerston North and that was separate to Nuclear Test Veterans. The reunion, I was the chairman of this reunion, and the reunion was for a radio station we had a Waiouru, HMNZS Irirangi. So, I had everybody collected at the RSA buildings in Palmerston North, we had this reunion, and it was a success, you see. So, Roy approached me and said, “would you mind organising a reunion for the Nuclear Test Veterans?” So, him and I, his wife, and my wife, the four of us set up our steering committee- for the Nuclear Test Veteran’s Association. Yeah, the four of us set it up. And it was because of the success I had with the Irirangi reunion, he wanted me to do something about setting up a New Zealand Nuclear Test Veterans, so it was him and I that really got into setting up the Nuclear Test Veterans. I was vice-chairman when he died, you see, and I went to a reunion at Auckland for the veterans of Operation Grapple and they nominated me straight away, and said, “we want you to be president of the Nuclear Test Veterans’ Association.” And I said, there’s a guy called Gerry Wright, he’s the one that put my name forward, and I said, “Yes, I’ll do it.” And then that’s what I’m doing now- the chairman of the Nuclear Test Veterans’ Association- I’m president actually.
Shimasaki:
How many members, at the moment, do you know that you have?
Tahi:
We would be lucky to have 50-100… But out of 551, yeah.
I don’t know whether you know, but I’ve just come back from England as well. I was invited over there by the British Veteran’s Association.
Shimasaki:
What were you doing there?
Tahi:
They had a commemoration for the British Nuclear Test Veterans’ Association, and I am the president of the New Zealand Nuclear Test Veterans’ Association, so they invited me over there. And I asked my wife if she would go, she said, “it’s too far.” So, I took my daughter with me, she was my carer, she did a marvellous job for me.
Shimasaki:
That’s really good you brought that up. One of my other questions for you was if you had contact with other test veterans abroad, and who you have got contact with.
So, you’ve got that contact with the British veterans.
Tahi:
Yes.
Shimasaki:
Do you hear from other nuclear test veterans abroad as well?
Tahi:
No, not really. When I got an official invitation from the British Veterans’ Association, and when they had this commemoration in England, they asked for 25 personnel from throughout the world to attend- I was the only one.
Shimasaki:
Thank you for representing New Zealand.
Tahi:
[Laughs] I was the only one, but never mind. I thoroughly enjoyed it; it was a marvellous trip. But I know I’ve got contacts over there I can get in contact with any time.
Shimasaki:
… What kind of event were they holding for their commemoration?
Tahi:
You know what it’s for, the Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, at this commemoration, he stood up, and he said “sorry.” [Shimasaki- He apologised?] To the British Nuclear Test Veterans’ Association for what hurt they have done to the British Nuclear Test Veterans. He said, “I’m very sorry.”
Shimasaki:
Is that the first apology that the British have had?
Tahi:
That’s the first time. This is what I can’t understand, surely this government must have, the speech is there. And he announced that King Charles is now presenting the British Nuclear Test Veterans with a medal and that includes Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, from the Commonwealth… It’s a positive move. They’ve apologised and said, “sorry we’ve done harm to the British Nuclear Test Veterans.”
Shimasaki:
What would you like to see from the New Zealand government?
Tahi:
I would like to see that they recognise what has happened. We want recognition, that’s exactly what we want, and I know most of my veterans would like to see some sort of compensation. But it’s not for us to ask for that, as far as, well in my position anyway, my position and the position of the patron of our association which is Al Rowland. Him and I are adamant we should only go for an apology, and maybe later, if possible, if they could think of something like that. Go through a certain process of it. And it was like me when I sat down at the commemoration in Staffordshire, the Prime Minister was sitting in the front row, my daughter and I were sitting right behind the Prime Minister, and I thought to myself, ‘I wonder if I could tap him on the shoulder?’ But being myself, I thought about protocol, you couldn’t do things like that, and I didn’t want to do that. I thought, ‘well he’s got his bodyguards there and everybody there,’ and I thought, ‘no, you can’t do that,’ so I didn’t do that.
[Personal chat].
Shimasaki:
A couple of closing remarks…
What is your perspective on nuclear weapons and nuclear technology?
And then, what would you like to see in the future? That could be on a local level, or a global level.
Tahi:
Local and global, I’m dead against it.
I wouldn’t like anyone to put their hands on their button- exactly like what may happen to Putin in a situation like that, it would ruin Europe itself if he does that. It’s a killer, nuclear testing. Because we know what effects it has, because we have children who are affected by this and that’s generations to come, what’s going to happen to their children? Might be the same thing. We don’t know. We don’t know what’s going to happen in the future, and if something like that happens now, you’d ruin the world, especially if he gets his finger on the pulse there.
Shimasaki:
Do you have any closing remarks?
For example, hopes or what you would like the world to know.
People who come to the website and read your story, what would you like them to know?
Tahi:
I would like them to know that what I’m, why I feel I’ve put myself in this position, is that I want to carry on the legacy of Roy Sefton who has done in the past- that’s what I want. I’m hoping for, I want to carry on his legacy and hopefully we can help families. I’m sure this reunion that’s coming up, if I can get everything in order, I would have someone here to advise our veterans and families of what would happen in the future for them, something that is going to be helpful towards their way of living and things like that because I’ve had phone calls from guys, “can you help me now?” We can’t help anyone because we just haven’t got the funds. I have approached a sponsor and I am going to have him here one day before our reunion and I am going to ask for some funds to help us out and I am sure he will, yeah, so that we can help. There’s guys now in a situation where they want help now, to help out with their [pauses]. I can’t see how they can not have help now anyway because everything I’ve got with my illness and that is done through veterans affairs, and surely they must be covered in that respect as well, I don’t know. But they must be in dire straights with the [pause]. What I would like to do, is I’d like to go around to each one throughout the country and see how they are getting on, and find out what conditions that they are living in. And if I can do that, go around and visit different ones, see if they are agreeable to it, then maybe I can put myself in a position where ‘this can go there, this can go there.’ You know, if I get this sponsor too, he’ll be a help, and I’m sure he will.
Shimasaki:
That’s good, there is hope.
Tahi:
There is hope.
Shimasaki:
Thank you very much.