Roy Sefton
June 21, 1938- January 5, 2021.
Chairman of the New Zealand Nuclear Test Veterans’ Association
-Operation Grapple
- We have talked for a while before this.
Shimasaki:
If you could explain you experiences at Operation Grapple, please.
Sefton:
Oh. It’s hard. Overall, the whole thing was extremely uncomfortable, at the equator, Christmas Island. Hot, boring, we did one hundred [pause] out of 124 days at one period up there, we spent 104 days at sea.
Shimasaki:
Wow so that’s a long time.
Sefton:
That’s a long time. With little breaks going into Christmas Island but there was nothing at Christmas Island to go there for really. So, the mission up there was to support the British nuclear weapons testing programme, and they had just been removed from Australia prior to that and they sort of put their finger down on a map after New Zealand refused the use of the Kermadec Islands, and their finger landed on Christmas Island and that is where they decided to take their bomb tests further and develop a hydrogen bomb test, hydrogen bomb, and the idea was of course to make them a world nuclear power. So, prior to us arriving there the British had sent out masses of men and equipment and they lay an airstrip down there and put in other primitive sorts of buildings and equipment that they may need. The New Zealand ships were picked in the main because the radar that they had was extremely good for monitoring or tracking weather balloons.
Shimasaki:
Ok, so is that what you were doing while you were there?
Sefton:
Yeah. That was the main purpose but um, the main purpose was to get the weather and that was all recorded back, and the weather was important because first of all, you want a perfect day if you are going to drop one of these weapons and secondly you want to know where the fallout is going to be blown. And so, we were letting weather balloons go often several times a day and that was even more uncomfortable because the ship just came to a stop really and there was no breeze over it, the iron decks were hot and yeah so it added to the discomfort. There were other duties we had as escorting intruders out of the exclusion zone and oddly enough there was a threat from Japan that a flotilla of yachts were to come down and protest- they didn’t turn up. There was a likelihood of merchant ships being wandering into the exclusion zone and submarines from Russia and America that’s all. And we did actually get a submarine contact on the eve of the 5th bomb as I recall [Shimasaki- ok] and we tried to track that but we had to give up because of time. Yeah, sea rescue was another important thing, particularly if one of the bombers, there was always a great fear that when they dropped these bombs that there may be a crash with a live bomber on board.
Shimasaki:
And that was your role to collect them if that happened?
Sefton:
Yeah, yes we would be involved in that sort of thing and yeah. The crews, two ships were selected, Pukaki and Rotoiti. Am I telling you all that you already know?
Shimasaki:
It’s fine. It is good to hear it over again from your perspective.
Sefton:
Yeah. And the Pukaki and Rotoiti were selected to go up there and the original thought there would probably only be possibly three detonations and be away with it.
Shimasaki:
So, you were aware of the detonations at the time you left? What was going to be happening?
Sefton:
No, in the main it was all kept secret, and I knew, I was in the communications branch and because of the signals coming in and out of the ships this is- while we were up in Auckland, and watching things being loaded on board that we weren’t aware of or didn’t know much about. But the communicators knew but the rest of the crew didn’t, except the officers of course and so it wasn’t until we sailed from Auckland that it was disclosed to us, there then started, immediately actually, exercises, anti-radiation exercises, rigging hoses to wash the ship down in case we did encounter fallout, covering all the hatches, closing the ventilation down, and each man was appointed a blast station [interviewer- (taking this in) ok] and mine was in the [6:24 inaudible word] and with the rest of the communications branch and the idea was to get you there during the detonations and then they would exercise getting you to what they called, ‘shelter spaces’ which were compartments deep within the ship, magazines, small spaces like that. And get as much ship between you and any radiation that had been detected so there were stopwatches put on you to see how fast you could get there and the idea was to cut that down to an absolute minimum.
Shimasaki:
When were you there during the tests, and how long were you there for?
Sefton:
I was there for 5 detonations. April 1957, I can’t remember, until the Grapple Y which was the 5th test.
Shimasaki:
Ok.
Sefton:
Yeah.
Shimasaki:
And what did you see while you were at the tests?
Sefton:
[laughs].
[7:44].
Um, [pause] the, there is only one test that really leaves me with any great lasting impression and that was the first one of course, and the two New Zealand frigates would alternate close in ship, far out ship- and we were the close in ship and it was 80 miles away but nevertheless it was just something that we had never seen before and photographs and films and things just don’t do it any justice because even at that distance, it was seen, and felt, and heard, was sort of up there and it drew quite a lot of good old fashion naval language from those that saw it. And yeah, So, during the first one in particular we were at last stations dressed in denim clothing in the main, face masks, goggles which were supplied, hands over our eyes with our backs to where the bomb was going to explode, and as I recall it was to be exploded around about 10 o’ clock in the morning. The ship had been prepared for, closed down, and all food everything like that was taken off the upper deck and that sort of thing and the ship was run by a skeleton crew- they wanted as many men to observe this detonation as possible and that was right throughout all the ships and all the people involved, and [pause] it was obviously part of the experiment, there is the excuse why is the, was an indoctrination of servicemen in case of future nuclear war and would have experienced a nuclear exposure beforehand- I don’t believe that one bit. And a message from squadron leader, [looking for name] of the RAF who was sent to the British and the American tests in Nevada had sent information back after observing what the Americans do and in this communication he said we have solved the problem of indoctrination [10:52 static on recorder makes it difficult to hear word] in the Americans and what the Americans would do was, digging a trench close to ground zero getting men to go into it and then after the detonation they were ordered to march forward to ground zero, and the films somewhere around that I have seen amongst others where these guys got to ground zero and they were literally brushing the fallout off these guys because [interviewer- wow] yeah. So, that is where it came from and, so anyhow we were all up on the deck and the bomber came out and the pilot had a radio circuit to the ship and that in turn was broadcast on loud speakers around the ship, who approach and then all of a sudden we heard, well we were ordered from the ship to close our eyes, put our hands over our eyes, backs [12:05 inaudible] and then we herd the pilot say, ‘bomb gone’, countdown, 10, 9, 8, 7 [pause] 4, 3, [12:15 inaudible] and right on cue there’s this flash that I described it as white light and you know, it’s an old story you have heard thousands of times that the bones in my fingers were saw through your hands and through you dark glasses and through your closed eyes [pause] and in those about probably 15 seconds, 30 seconds after we were told to turn around and face the bomb, which we did, and this was, at that stage it was a large fire ball just rising up- reds and greys and rumbling and to me it sounded, I don’t know if you have ever seen old Western movies but it sounded like the old stampedes of cattle they used to have [Shimasaki- oh yes] in this rumbling sort of noise and then later out of the blue the blast wave hit us which caused a sensation in your ears and then it just over time, it just evolved into a normal mushroom cloud. Yup.
Shimasaki:
Were all the men given the same safety equipment so to speak?
[13:50].
Sefton:
Uh, no there was a variation, there was, the bulk of the crew were dressed in this sort of stuff [his outfit- everyday] and I’ll show you a photo shortly and, but they did have what they called damage control teams on there and monitoring teams and they were guys that had during these exercises had been designated that if we detected any radiation, then the rest of the company, ship’s company, would go to their shelter stations while these guys remained on deck with their Geiger counters and the like taking measurements. But they were dressed in a sort of a very close woven cloth which was distinctly different from what we were wearing- big baggy overalls and gas masks and things, and the close weave was to keep any particles of radiation from getting through and making contact with the skin. Yup.
[15:09].
Um, so they were in their clothing, and we were in ours too.
Shimasaki:
Did you have any say on what you got to wear? Could you ask for the jumpsuit?
Sefton:
Oh hell no [emphasis]. No. no. and you know, it was all, every bit of skin had to be covered. After that detonation at Grapple 1, after a short period, the ships swung the bow towards the cloud and we sailed within 14 miles of ground zero to pass our monitoring equipment on to the aircraft carrier, HMS [thinking/ pause] Warrior. Warrior. Yeah HMS Warrior. So that was quite an event in itself. And at the second test we were far out, at the third test we were in again- I can’t remember the distance, [pause] at the fourth test, well after the third test we returned to Auckland thought it was all over [interviewer- ok (probing)]. I was getting ready for a trip up to the far east; Hong Kong, Japan, places like that… We went up again.
Shimasaki:
So, they called you back? Did they specifically call back the same group of men or was it new groups of men?
Sefton:
It would be the same crews. Yeah.
Shimasaki:
Ok yes.
Sefton:
And so, Pukaki and Rotoiti went back, just for Grapple X, we came back. And, thought it was all over then, and then we got called back for Grapple Y- that was in 1958, and Grapple Y, I don’t know whether you have done any reading about Grapple Y, they reckon it is the one that went wrong and it is presumed to be the largest detonation of them all and when you get a chance to look at the video called ‘The Truth of Christmas Island’ there is a scientist on there who specialises in these things who states that looking at the mushroom cloud it has got segregations in it and that is probably sea water or even possibly the seabed going up with the cloud and it’s, it’s exploded too low which is the one thing they didn’t want because it sucks up stuff and it has got to come down again. Just back to after Grapple 3, those detonations were exploded at Malden Island which is about 100 miles south east of Christmas Island, so the bombs weren’t really, the first bombs weren’t exploded at Christmas Island they were at Malden Island, and after the third detonation Wilfred Owen- taskforce command, states in his book, he was approached by the chief scientist Ian who said, ‘look we have got to do it all again’, they didn’t get the desired result, so that’s, and what they did, they didn’t have the resources then, the Warrior for example would be shot to other duties, some of the other ships would go on up onto the far east station and they just never had facilities really to do it again at Malden and Wolf Walton [name] made the decision to explode them off the south east tip of Christmas Island irrespective of the fact that there were about 3000 men.
Shimasaki:
So, the men were still on the island at the time of the explosion?
Sefton:
I am pretty sure servicemen were still there. We of course, were sailing around and spent very little time on Christmas Island and we would go ashore for a beer but that was about it, you know? And…
Shimasaki:
Were you closer for those tests than the earlier tests, or further away? Do you know?
Sefton:
Well, as it turned out, the men on the island were obviously close on some respects although the New Zealand ships, well Pukaki at least, ended up only 20 miles from ground zero that is. And in, I am trying to think of his name, the defence force historian wrote in his review of the Grapple tests that New Zealand ships were progressively put closer to ground zero and their protective clothing was reduced. So, at the fifth test, Grapple Y, I observed that in only sandals and a pair of jandals. And, that detonation was quite a large one, it caught us unexpectedly and we were some distance from that as well, and the ship literally heeled to the starboard and I mean it because I was in the mess when the blast wave and shock wave hit us, and I remember that since I had stuff in my hand, I put it out of my hand and yeah. So, after Grapple Y, well after Grapple X, Rotoiti was sent to the far east station and it was only Pukaki that attended Grapple Y and then there was a big change of crew from Pukaki and I was taken off then, as were the bulk of them. And, so a new crew came on and the testing programme continued with another four detonations.
Shimasaki:
Ok.
Sefton:
Those, I didn’t personally witness.
Shimasaki:
Yes, yes.
[22:24].
Interesting. So, moving on to the next part, can you please explain the effects that nuclear testing and radiation has had on your personal health, if any?
Sefton:
[laughs].
Health-wise there is no actual proof that it has. However, you are aware of Al Rowland’s study [Shimasaki- yes]. And his scientific proof that the DNA of the majority of the people who were the has been affected, and [pause] [to his daughter] Can you have a look in my bookcase there for Al Rowland’s report and it should be near the top… school of cytogenetic analysis.
Shimasaki:
Is that the sister chromatid exchange?
Sefton:
Yup. So, in my late teens and I’m guessing early 20s I was [23:46 inaudible] muscular and skeletal problems.
Interviewee’s daughter:
Is it either of these two dad? Either of these?
Sefton:
Which one? And, I didn’t think too much of it but it was getting progressively worse.
Shimasaki:
And it wasn’t something you had had beforehand?
Sefton:
No, no. it wasn’t something I had before and I didn’t really think all that much about it but, I wanted to make a career out of the navy and so I signed on again for another four years when I was 26 and by then I was a petty officer. And as I say I was wanting to go through get the pension [24:49 inaudible word] for 20 years. But, I suddenly realised I was also suffering fatigue with no apparent reason and I knew that it would state in the navy, and perhaps fell asleep on watch or something, I would be demoted back to the mess decks and life wouldn’t be all that good for me so I left on my own accord and I didn’t really think about a medical discharge, if I was allowed that. I worked for a while as a truck driver of all the things then I returned to what I did know which was communications which I did at the post office and I became a supervisor there and then I qualified for a controlling officer of international communication offices but I didn’t get to fill any of those positions because I had to go on sickness benefit and I was extremely ill and stiff in [name] joints, couldn’t walk, at one stage for a lengthy period, I couldn’t walk across the room to change the channel on the tv which you had to do in those days there was no remotes, couldn’t go to the letterbox, I had brought a house- two-storied house, I couldn’t go up the stairs so we brought this house which I made do. And so there was something that was affecting me, I saw every sort of specialist and [talks quickly to himself] there was no diagnosis expect they did think I had Ankylosing Spondylitis but the specialist told me I will give you 10 years, he said the extent of your Spondylitis was such that I would give you 10 years because the strain of your heart because your ribs are going to not move when you breathe and that puts strain on your heart and for those that have those disease it normally causes heart problem and, but anyhow I bumped into him many years later when I was up in the hospital when I was walking in the corridor and he looked at me and said, ‘well I misdiagnosed you didn’t I.’ [laughs]. But anyway, that it what I wanted to show you [Shimasaki is shown the study by Al Rowland ‘thank you’] this is in the micronucleus assay that was one they did. It founded a slight elevation, and it was to look at cell repair and cell division. That is a good healthy one [points to image] [Shimasaki- yes] and these are sourced from other, not necessarily veterans, of other people with poorer and poorer cell division. You can see the nuclei there [points to image]…
And um, it is during the research at Massey, Al Rowland came down, came down to me and told me that he had considered a moral duty to break the code because they were doing this study blind, they didn’t know whether they were analysis veterans or their controls.
Shimasaki:
Yes.
Sefton:
But he had to break that he said, because the damage was so great, and it turned out to be me in this particular sample.
Shimasaki:
Oh wow.
Sefton:
And it was such that they sent the ample up to the oncology department at Auckland Hospital, and they came back and said well the only thing you can advise this man is get him to advise his doctors to keep a careful eye for cancer and other than that they knew nothing about any other health conditions. I was slightly elevated in the chromosomes as well, but this was quite a damage that was very severe, the worst, Al Rowland tells me of the whole sample. So, there is something that’s gone on there.
Shimasaki:
Yeah. That’s not something that they see in the general population often, or? Do you know?
[29:53].
Sefton:
No, it would be, it may be there, you get cases of it. Well, you’re talking about cell division for me.
Shimasaki:
[Clarifying] With yours, yes.
Sefton:
Yeah. But it would be a pretty damaged individual who’s got it, there’s something wrong in their system. The only thing they don’t know is chromosomes as you probably know, some damage in chromosomes can be related to various illnesses but it is only a few, it’s not a whole mass and so the chromosome damage that we suffered there in the veterans it’s a but hard to relate to health conditions. But Al Rowland describes it as, carrying a disease around with you- it is liable to take affect at any time- that’s the genetic damage he is referring to…
Government of course, makes no, makes a great play, well, you know, we don’t know what the health effects are, and what they are really saying- well you are carrying around genetic damage to your DNA but we don’t know it is going to cause any affect so until such time that it is found, we will ignore it. You know, that’s basically what you hear.
Shimasaki:
Immediately after the tests did you have any symptoms or [Sefton shakes his head], nothing? Nothing. [Sefton’s home phone ringing]. So it was just in the future that things started to…
Sefton:
Yeah. Yeah. And of course, it was in the future… although I had always had an interest in this nuclear stuff because of these books and bits and pieces, that I had read about Hiroshima and Nagasaki and but it didn’t make me fanatical, but I was…
Yeah. You know, I just got on with my life and yeah. Ok.
Shimasaki:
Intergenerational concerns and genetic damage have been frequently mentioned in the literature, do you believe this is a concern which is related to the nuclear tests, and why do you hold your beliefs?
Sefton:
Well, um. [pause]. The Crusher Collins (nickname for Judith Collins), what’s her name, the politician yeah, Crusher Collins, when she was the minister of veteran’s affair’s she initiated a ministerial advisory group on veterans’ health, and part of the agreed was to look into the effects of the Massey study. Things like that. And this was called the ‘expert panel’. Had a number of, had about 6-7 scientists on there, 2009 I think it was maybe that was the end, 2009, 2010, or 2000-and-yeah. Something. And we met with them a number of times and one of the subjects that they looked into was, well first of all, they looked at Massey university and the study there, the cytogenetic study and in their, in I think it is January 2010 I think, they submitted the [34:21 loud crackling noise through recording makes it inaudible for a few words] to minister Collins and in it, it basically said that they upheld the research methodology and the findings of the Massey research. They stated that the literature did not show concern with regard to children inheriting genetic damage, and minister Collins sort of ignored it- we have had a battle with the government ever since.
Shimasaki:
Ok.
Sefton:
So, this expert panel that was set up and upheld the research and there was also [pause] I am just trying to think of the guy at Colombia University New York. Um, very well-known professor, yeah and he peer reviewed the Massey study and he called it, ‘state of the art’ and upheld the research as did some others – there were a lot that didn’t, there was a lot of scientific travesty out there so and political problems, but um yeah.
Shimasaki:
Ok, moving on to the next part, what reparation and compensation are you aware of for nuclear test veterans? And I know you had quite a big role in these sorts of things.
[36:31].
Sefton:
Well as far as nuclear test veterans in general, if you meet specific requirement and you are an American nuclear, or an atomic veteran as they call them, you can get a substantial amount in compensation, but you lose your pension and medical costs that cover your disabilities, or you can continue with your pension. And they have what they call a presumptive list, are you aware of that at all?
Shimasaki:
Never heard of it.
Sefton:
The American presumptive list and it lists about 26 cancers that are attributed to radiation exposure and if you meet the requirements and you are suffering one of these cancers then you are compensated.
Shimasaki:
Ok. Is it similar for test veterans in New Zealand? Do you know?
Sefton:
Here’s the interesting thing, the New Zealand government was using American information selectively and what the Americans because they can be quite negative as well, were using, they were using, our government was using against us, and I made the argument to the minister of veterans affairs in parliament when we were in a meeting at some stage, that it seemed rather unusual that your selectively using information that knocks our arguments but you won’t uphold similar information from the Americans that actually benefits us. And one of the things that does benefit us would be a presumptive list. Now whether it was me or not who did it, I don’t know and they never tell you, but eventually presumptive, a nuclear presumptive list did crop up and it was a little better than the American’s actually. If you got one of these 20 odd cancers and its medically confirmed then you automatically, or if you died and you’re widowed, you’re in line for a pension. So, if you’re a veteran and you have got one of these things you get a pension, if you’ve died of it then your widow will get it. They all say well I can’t remember, they also said that the children of veterans would be eligible for help through veterans’ affairs if they had one or more of five conditions: cleft palate, leukaemia, [inaudible 39:34] the rest I can’t remember off the top of my head. So there’s that, but prior to that, when, politician, Maori guy, Winston Peters, when Peter’s was previously in government, you probably know this, it was a long time ago, he was the deputy prime minister, as he is now in this government and he was also the minster for foreign affairs- he is an ex-lawyer, but prior to him fulfilling that position when he was just, New Zealand First was just another party, that was one party that was lobbying for support for the Grapple veterans and Peter’s was very interested in the legalities of the New Zealand Grapple veterans, because he was a lawyer that’s why, and it interested him. And we had discussion with him in a number of meetings, a very hard man to deal with, good, I like him but if you try any funny stuff with him, you know… And um, so, in the lead up to the election we had these meetings, and he was quite sympathetic towards us and he did make us, and we were, at that time, we were first and foremost we were chasing more disability pensions for the veterans, for the surviving spouse’s pensions… yeah we were chasing these pensions for veterans or their widows.
Shimasaki:
So, just nuclear test veterans? Ok.
[41:55].
Sefton:
And, he promised that if he got into power we would get pensions. And oddly enough, it was just by chance, I was sitting here one day and he, and parliament was on, and I think it might have been, oh it was the early days of that particular government he announced in parliament that he was going to give a grant of 200,000 dollars to the Grapple veterans to investigate the possibility of bringing a class legal action against the government of the UK. Now it wasn’t easy to get that money, you and we had to, it wasn’t sat down anywhere but we knew we had to fulfil a number of requirements and so, so the problem we faced was that we were about two weeks away from actually uplifting that money, the 200,000 dollars, and he got the sack and the then changed prime minister, prime minister Jenny Shipley wouldn’t honour it. But what Peter’s did do in 1997 was he announced that without, without much fanfare in fact that the, the he announced that we’d get more disability pensions- Operation Grapple.
Shimasaki:
Ok. And was that honoured?
Sefton:
Yes, it was.
Shimasaki:
Ok.
Sefton:
In fact, it was quite an extraordinary experience. One of the staff rang me one day and said, ‘can you come down to parliament?’ I didn’t know. ‘Can you come down to parliament on Monday at such and such.’ And I said, ‘yeah’. She says, ‘Winston is going to make an announcement’ and I said, ‘what is it?’ and they wouldn’t tell me, and I thought it might be pensions but, and then I got another ring a day later, no can you put it on such and such a date and shifted it and so it changed about three times [interviewer- ok] because he was frightened that the National Party, he was New Zealand First, he was frightened that the National Party would steal his thunder. But anyhow we got down there and these beehive office, it was packed with reported, spilling out actually, and the meeting was or the announcement was set down for two o’ clock and we sat in his reception area there and one of his staffers came round and handed us a bit of paper, at one minute to two [interviewer- oh, wow] and read it and it was that he was going to announce war pensions, [45:44 difficult to hear words] so yeah, that was that. So, that. So, we got the pensions first, the presumptive list second [interviewer- ok], and then of course, we had this 200,000 dollars that had been promised to us but not honoured and we had to wait, I dunno, about 9 years I think, before [pause] and it as the election before Helen Clarke came in. In the lead up to that election we campaigned every political party to get that 200,000 dollars and the only party that wouldn’t hour it was national who were in government at the time but anyhow, I tell you this because it is important how this funding came about. Anyhow, labour got in and then when they got in, they suddenly decided they had cold feet, and I got information form the staff down there that the problem was that they even thought it would effect trade, that if we used that money for its original purpose, that is an action against the government of the UK that could effect trade ad relations would break down and that sort of thing, but they didn’t know that I was actually gonna use the 200,000 dollars, if I had a choice, I was going to put it into research because 200,000 dollars in legal fees is about two weeks work and you’re not gonna get much from it, then you got to launch a case, you’ve got to fund that. So um [pause].
Shimasaki:
Did it go into the research? Did you get it?
Sefton:
Well, the minister of veteran’s affairs then was Mark Burton, and his advisory officer rang me one day and said they were thinking about distributing the money to other veteran’s associations, not necessarily nuclear veterans.
Shimasaki:
Ok.
Sefton:
So that’s a wacky idea. Nuclear test veterans need it, and as then it put it on her, I said, ‘well what’s say we put part or all of that into research?’ and she said, ‘well I’ll call you back’. And I was expecting about a two-month delay, and I think it was only the next day when she rang me and she said subject to a meeting with the minister, provisionally you will get the fund. So, the agreement was, that 100,000 dollars would be put into research and the other 100,000 was broader sort of use would be used to benefit the charitable trust which NZNTVA is. So that’s the 100,000, that’s how the research got through.
Shimasaki:
Al Rowland’s research?
[49:11].
Sefton:
Yeah, that, little story behind that was that I had to go on the internet and research all the options available and I’d come across information that St. Andrew’s university in the UK was very good at and had great interest on any research on radiation, and to cut a long story short, they had a research programme there that they wanted to do that they couldn’t get funding for, and, and originally I was thinking well maybe they could do the research over there but getting blood on time was all sorts of problems. But anyhow, to cut a long story short, I got the information supplied to me from St. Andrews and gave it to Al Rowland and sort of said, ‘how much of this can you do?’ and he said, ‘oh, some of it’ and, and yeah so in the end we signed a contract with Massey university. The only problem was, it was supposed to cost only 100,000 dollars but shortly into the research we had to renew some of the chemicals with better quality and we had to go on another fundraising campaign to raise another 78,000 dollars which we did. Overall, we raised in effect and paid it an extra, I dunno, 110,000, 120,000 above the hundred and thousand so- massive job for old men and sick men.
Shimasaki:
That would have been. Yeah.
Sefton:
But anyhow we did it.
Shimasaki:
So, from that, do you feel like that sort of compensation and recognition has been enough, or do you feel there should be more?
Sefton:
It’s a hard one. It’s sort of enough but it’s not broad enough. And um, you see, one of the problems we had is that, if we were to ask for compensation in New Zealand and I got this from the Crown Law Office, you couldn’t, they wouldn’t pay both a pension and compensation- much the same as the American’s that we had to take one or the other. But our real target for compensation was the government of the UK and eventually we ended up in the English courts, and if we had of got compensation there it wouldn’t have affected our New Zealand pensions at all. But the problem is of course, first of all, you’ve got to know what illnesses are related to radiation exposure, and having established that is the government going to pay for those extra illnesses? And they won’t. And this is firm, firm…
Shimasaki:
Proof?
Sefton:
Yeah… And so that’s not broad enough. And then of course, at the conference we had the inaugural NZNTVA conference, it became apparent to us that the children were affected as well.
Shimasaki:
Ok.
Sefton:
Yup.
Shimasaki:
Was that through talking to people and hearing their stories?
Sefton:
Yup, yup. And yeah so that’s it. So that research at Massey University. Al Rowland went to a conference in Wellington by a chemical production company and they were pushing the M-fish, the micro fluorescent in-situ hybridisation assay and that was already known and that was evolving and this was another step forward in that particular study and that was one of the prime methods of research in the field for radiation exposure in people, and that’s how we adopted that, bit it’s only part of the Massey study and the cytogenetic analysis did 3 assays; the micronucleus, the G2 and the M-fish and I sweated cobs here because I had committed our very future to this research. If they found nothing, it would be used not only here but worldwide to say well it has been subject, these veterans have been subjected to the best research known, and they haven’t found anything [you can hear the seriousness in his voice]. It was a terrible risk that I took, and I knew that. But there was only one way to ever find out if an individual had been irradiated, unless it was acute and then the obvious short-term problems would be evident.
[55:01].
But low-dose, long-term, the only way you could do was discover that was through research and I was the idiot [laugh] that took the chance that said well we are going to see if we can find if that is the case. As it turned out, the micronucleus assay never gave us a result that we could definitely ay, ‘well that’s significant and here’s damage there’, the G2 assay did much the same and it was only the micronucleus assay which was the last one to be completed that, and it was most prominent of course, where we got a significant. And those, the damage detected in the, which you know found somewhere in the veterans, was on a level with that detected in the Chernobyl clean-up workers. About three times what you would expect to find in the normal population with the chromosomes.
Shimasaki:
So that’s highly elevated then.
Sefton:
Yes, it is. Yeah.
Shimasaki:
How do you think nuclear testing at Christmas Island has impacted political decisions on disarmament and peace? [piece of recording removed].
Sefton:
Well, if you look around the Western world, at least if you look at the American’s the Asian’s, the Australian’s, the New Zealander’s, the Fijian’s and in particular the British who are the worst, they have all fought to fully recognise damaged to their nuclear test veterans, and if you look at Britain for example, who should be leading the road here, the way here, and should have from the start, I mean, the British it’s just unbelievable, they have, the British nuclear test veterans- it is very rare for one of them to get any form of recognition, either by way of a pension or any other, expect for government says, ‘well we appreciate what you did, blah, blah, blah’ but they won’t recognise any dangers. In recent years they did, I think it was 109 pilots, they finally did acknowledge that 109 air crew may have been affected by radiation, that’s after decades of full denial and they are still scrapping over there now. And the great problem with all that of course, was when we started New Zealand government was looking to the British government for information, so they were being, the New Zealand government was being fed the same rubbish that the British government were telling their veterans and luckily through the efforts of the Association we have been able to turn a bit of that around. And in fact, we are probably, certainly in the Western world, what we obtained here is are superior or we have got far more than the Australians, the Brit’s and to a degree, the Americans. The Americans do get a hefty compensation if they can prove it but there are so many that don’t, aren’t able to prove it through, the strings are that tight.
Shimasaki:
On that note too, what is your perspective on nuclear weapons and testing?
[59:21].
Sefton:
Now, bit of a hard one. I’ve got a plaque up there, a plaque [points] but I and the Association were made peacekeepers or peace makers of 2009, or something, I don’t know how.
Shimasaki:
It’s a great achievement.
Sefton:
Yeah because of what we have done. But the truth of the matter is that in the main, well we are, every man who served at Grapple in the Navy was a professional navy-man and highly trained, highly disciplined, and did whatever you were asked to do.
And, But, it’s an odd thing I have noticed, that even those veterans that served in the Second World War, and or in the Korean War, or in any other theatre for that matter, the one that they damn the most is Operation Grapple. And yet, we didn’t carry anybody out in body bags or anything like that.
Shimasaki:
Did you ever hear a reason behind that?
Sefton:
Yeah. The reason behind it was generated, stupidly by politicians to be honest. And we know, for example that things went on that could only raise suspicion. For example, an investigation was set up in the UK in 2009, you wouldn’t believe it, it’s stranger than fiction but post-mortems were being carried out on deceased atomic power station workers and this is all recorded, you can look it up on the internet. I forget the guys, name who did it, and in amongst those was a group of nuclear test veterans. These post-mortems were literally done without their next-of-kin knowing them, and in the investigation, they found receipts for broomsticks that were replaced in the limbs of people that they had removed bone, whole bones from. [sombre]. The very fact that it was done on nuclear test veterans as well does raise [pause ‘questions’] and so that was all over the papers- quite a scandal of course, and what was happening was the nuclear power stations were trying to find out if their workers had in fact been irradiated and what illnesses they were suffering, and we got into that as well. The court cases, the ministry of defence in the UK refused to release certain documents.
Shimasaki:
Ok. Did you ever hear about the findings from the post-mortems?
[1:03:08].
Sefton:
Yeah. There was, as I recall, well, yeah there was nothing really dramatic that I recall there. But you were relying on the media and the media were really more wound up about reporting the underhand method of you know, the shock of all this and yeah. But that doesn’t mean anything, the point is am making here is that you know, and there are veterans in the UK that to this day swear that their doctor is reporting their conditions to a higher authority and I don’t know whether that is true or not, but I only have the report [trails off]. In the main what I get from the general practitioners is that they don’t know a thing about radiation, and they don’t know, they know even less about its health effects, and they don’t really want to be involved if they can avoid it as well because it’s a sticky question. I forgot what your original question was.
Shimasaki:
That’s ok. So, do you think it’s more of a social issue than the nuclear tests?
Sefton:
How do you mean a social issue?
Shimasaki:
As in, public opinions, do you think that has influenced the way people view it?
1:
Well it tried hard to, includes the public. [laughs]. There is that because as Helen Clarke when she came into power said, she couldn’t believe that they would stand men on the deck of a frigate and risk radiation exposure and all the other things that went with it. The, it’s a highly emotional thing, and because there’s so much, that’s what I say, if governments had been a little more honest, if they are as honest as they say they have been and there’s nothing to fear from these tests, then why do they go around under the pretence of saying it’s a military secret and we can’t disclose certain information. I mean there’s certain, you know, we were asking for radiation records during the casein the high court in the UK and then later in the Supreme Court and the MOD just didn’t provide it.
Shimasaki:
So, you never got those reports?
Sefton:
Even under the instructions of the judge of the Court. They didn’t turn around and say, ‘well we’re not going to give it to you’, they just didn’t give it to the lawyers and the lawyers had the job, (clarification) their lawyers had the job of facing the judge a little way down the track and saying, ‘you’re on a, we have received no information’…
Well, because there is so much secrecy and so much resistance to the veterans and their families, then its obvious that you are going to raise concern not only within the veteran group but also within the public. And of course the public are very, you know, they were back when we started our campaign anyway, they were shocked at the fact that men were just stood there and [showing the shock they felt] that’s despite the fact that we knew, said too much about it, but it’s always been my conclusion and certainly Al Rowlands coming around to that way of thinking too that the radiation that we suffered wasn’t at the time of detonation, it was during the time that we were working within the exclusion zone and we used to, you know, because of a lack of fresh water aboard the ship we’d track rain, tropical rain storms and guys would go up there and wash their teeth and bathe and wash their clothes in it and even if they were working on deck, the heat was such up there that you worked through rain- I mean you’re only getting a pair of pant and your underwear wet and you know that dried out anyhow and so. And what happened to, after each detonation, the monitoring equipment we had on board the ship was transferred to the flagship, so we weren’t really monitoring our environment for radiation 24/7. We were with a bit of sea water, but, and we got one reading there but fallout hotspots, if you read about hotspots which you may do at some stage and that sort of thing, whether it be in the ocean or over land, it just comes down in the rain and if you’re under it [pause for emphasis].
Shimasaki:
Yeah – and consuming it then.
Sefton:
And consuming it- you just got to swallow a bit. Then you’re faced with; is it going to pass through your body or is it going to lodge in an organ and if it does it pulse away there for 20, 30, 40, 50 years before it turns into a cancer. So, I don’t know, I’m wandering off a bit here but, yeah, it’s a highly emotive thing, and I think the big thing here is that it’s, it’s a thing that can affect not only the veteran but the children as well. And I’ve got to say over the years, there’s been a number of marriages have broken up, there’s been sad events where children have been born grossly deformed, and got x-rays of some of them here, there’s as I said, divorces, and that’s come about because the wife is blaming the husband because the children are affected and, which is horrifically unfair because he would never of had a, well he wouldn’t do this by choice but it’s, you know that, and then I’ve had instances where children are blaming the father because of their health problems. There’s been the odd suicide. Yeah. So, I think within the group, and I’ve got to say when I started this in the 70s, and partly through the 80s, I received hate mail from all of my shipmates because they considered I was being disloyal to the navy. And then, naturally, I didn’t do anything about it all that much except try to raise awareness but something had to be looked at but then, in centres like Auckland that were heavily populated with veterans who used to meet regularly for a few beers and that sort of thing, they suddenly noticed that Will wasn’t here, and Harry wasn’t here, and Joe won’t be here much longer and the penny started to drop that. Now, it’s hard to prove that too. Now we have turned down two offers alright, I have actually of research from government because I don’t think that they can be completely, scientifically fulfilled, and if we enter into that research and we don’t get an accurate report and particularly if it doesn’t show that there had been any increase in um, if there hasn’t been any increase then we are just painting our self into a corner for the future, or for the future of our children. And so, government fires that back at me quite often- says why do you refuse, and I sort of said well I mean one good reason is, you can’t research something if you haven’t got the full information and they haven’t got the full information on radiation levels that the British have. We don’t have it here, and the British won’t release it, they’ll release some, but they won’t release [Shimasaki- all the documents?]. No. So, you can’t do research with incomplete information.
Shimasaki:
And the number of veterans, is…
[1:12:57]
Sefton:
Well, that was another thing too, there’s a number of veterans we have no idea where they are, we had quite a number of veterans who had come from the royal navy and joined us out there and ended up at Operation Grapple and then later on when they left the navy here, they went back home. Other’s emigrated, I mean; Australia, Canada, pop up from everywhere. So, there’s a lot we don’t know, we don’t know their fate at all. So that limits thing as well.
Shimasaki:
Definitely. So, do you think there is a future for nuclear testing and tests?
Sefton:
Yeah, I do, but I can’t tell when at the moment for example, we are caught in a situation where after that ministerial advisory group recommended or found in support of the Massey study, a lay review was then commissioned about the research and what the expert panel had found. Now the expert panel had appointed another 6 reviewers to review Al Rowland’s study, and what they came up with in a lot of their information was wrong facts. For example, in the research, it clearly states that the test group, the veterans to be studied would be provided by veteran’s affairs New Zealand. We are not silly we weren’t going to, NZNTVA wasn’t going to supply the veterans and neither was Massey- that’s self-reporting. You know all about self-reporting then?
Shimasaki:
Yes. Yes.
Sefton:
So, no. so, it was veteran’s affairs, but in this lay review which was published in 2013, it had all these things and um there were other inaccuracies in there as well, but the self-reporting in particular threw a very negative light on the research [interviewer- ok] for people who didn’t know any better. [interviewer- yes]. And then it was publicly placed up, this lay review was publicly placed up on the veteran’s affairs website and I’ve had three meetings with various ministers of veteran’s affairs trying to get them to take this thing down, and the concern is this, if in the future and at the rate that genetic research is developing now it is found for example, that DNA is hereditary and we know in some circumstances that it is. We know that. But if it is more widely associated with radiation exposure and in the children in particular, I may not be around, I probably won’t be, but and maybe the children won’t, but any researcher that has suddenly for whatever reason starting to look at these, maybe the offspring in the future may raise their concerns if somebody is looking, an they go to this information that veteran’s affairs has put out, then they won’t look at the Massey research in any real seriousness because they think it’s flawed. Do you get the drift?
Shimasaki:
Yes. I understand.
[1:16:48].
Sefton:
So what I ‘ve got at the moment and I’m waiting for the new minister Ron Mark, um we went there last year in July and we took Al Rowland with me and I got him to do the talking, I said well it’s better coming from you, they don’t listen to me- I’m not the scientist I’m just a laymen to them and but it’s been some months now, but we’ve asked that the Massey research be the definitive genetic research to date that’s relied on and that the lay review is taken off the website. So, we are still waiting for an answer. It will have to come one day, yes or no. If it doesn’t do as we’ve asked, I’ll just have to go again to the media and start all over again- that’s all we can do.
Shimasaki:
Exactly. And then, just final question- why did you decide to participate in my research? And what would you like to see from it?
Sefton:
…Oh, that’s quite simple, look I am always hounding people to research us and generally as I said because I’m a layman they don’t take any notice of me. You see, you don’t, you never know what’s going to come out of what you may write.
And you never know who’s going to look at it in the future. And, I mean, Winston Peter’s was the last guy that anybody would have gone to except me. [laughs]. Um, [inaudible 1:18:40 for a couple of words] stand up for our nuclear stuff because in those days they never ever envisaged that he’d ever reach his position now. Why I always had a little bit of faith, only because the guy, I quite liked him actually, so yeah- that’s the reason. [1:19:04- inaudible words due to noise]. And, it’s something that’s there permanently that you can refer to but maybe one day, somebody’s browsing through that stuff. You see, the whole thing is, it’s just by chance, even if you take where we are today, I got to. I’m not blowing my own trumpet at all, but if I hadn’t of been the chairman, we’d still be in the same situation that Pom’s were- it was only my interest in the research side that nobody, and I think that when government gave us that 200,000 dollars, I think they were amazed. They never thought that we would end up going up to Massey and saying, ‘well hang on, do some DNA research’ they never thought that, they thought we would go down the same old epidemiological sort of path or some sort of statistical study…
Shimasaki:
Yeah. Thank you very much. That was very interesting.